Walter Block, Second Guest Appearance on "Our Story"

0:00Our story prides itself as being a people-oriented, community-driven media outlet. As a voice for the black community, our story labors around the clock to provide you with an up-to-the-minute account of events that are affecting as well as effecting our families and our communities. I want to take a moment to thank one of our viewers, Brother Eric, for suggesting that we attend the congressional hearings held at Dillard University last Thursday. We filmed much of the hearing and will probably address the issues at the hearing and show the footage at another time.

0:45My comments concerning the congressional hearings are simply, This was one of at least five hearings held at the federal level. As in past hearings and probably future hearings as well, it only amounted to a road trip for the legislators and all expense paid for by taxpayers' money, road trip with very little if any positive results coming out of it for the victims. So, in my mind's eye, it was just another day wasted. The upside to all of this is our story was able to document for the people another exercise in futility.

1:37We appreciate the viewer's suggestions and try to fulfill as many requests as possible. We thank you for your suggestions and encourage you to keep the suggestions coming. Last week's program with Sheriff Harry Lee was a perfect example of the effects that affect our daily lives. This week's program will continue in that vein of disclosure, which will allow us to to see and understand the forces of evil that is waiting for us at every turn, hiding behind their ivory towers of education and their plantations of penal reform.

2:23We realize not every racist is as open as Harry Lee is. The majority racists are nestled safely in the closet, awaiting the sound of the bugle for another charge to battle. Hidden racism is the worst form of the virus. As the old saying goes, smiling faces sometimes tell lies. Beware of the pat on the back with the handshake that hides the snake. These are lyrics to a well-known song, lyrics that communicate The dangers of the evil that lurks within the minds of many men.

3:13This week, we are hosting Professor Walter Block, an economist at the University of Loyola. Professor Block was with us several months ago. After that presentation, I am sure we could get a debate over whether Professor Block is a racist or not. But we are not here tonight to debate that topic. You can be the judge of that. However, we are here tonight to debate whether legalizing drugs is a viable means of stopping the murder rate in New Orleans and is it productive or counterproductive for the black community. To give us the proper setting for tonight's debate, let us lay the foundation by rewinding for a moment to November 1st when Professor Block was a guest on our story.

4:10So the problem of racism. Look, suppose a black person is worth $10 an hour, and a white person is also worth $10 an hour. They're each equally productive. But due to racism, The white person is making $10 an hour, but the black person is only making $7 an hour. Well, if that's true, then the employer who's hiring him is making an extra $3 an hour profit. So that's okay? That's great, because then what will happen as a first step, let me just finish, because then what will happen is that the guy who hires the black worker under this scenario will put out of business the other guy, because he'll be able to underperson him. I'm supposed to support this philosophy of business?

4:56Yeah, it'll get rid of racism. No, how will it get rid of racism? I rest my case. What is important is a foundation from where the theory of legalizing drugs comes from. It is important to recognize the fact that the apple never falls far from the tree. If I may borrow a metaphor to describe tonight's debate. Tonight we are faced with a theory that legalizing drugs will in fact reduce the murder rates and crime rates in New Orleans. Professor Block's position is that the usual suspect solutions have all been tried, have not worked in the past, and will not help us now.

5:50He rejects the so-called conventional wisdoms of improving public schools, daycare, stiffer penalties, midnight basketball, social workers, religion, subsidizing parenting skills, and the introduction of citizenship and ethics classes for middle and high school students. According to Professor Block, they are all inept remedies that haven't worked. Let me remind our viewers that the black cultural revolution of the 60s and the 70s was a major turning point in the advancement of black awareness and black on black love, During which time a certain value of pride and passion overcame the young black men and women, as well as the not so young black men and women, which caused the black community to fill the streets, which is the forefront of America's pageantry, proclaiming, I'm black and I'm proud.

7:08James Brown, the Godfather of Soul, promoted the newfound freedom with a passion fit for the kings and queens from whence black people emerged. Few blacks are credited with spearheading a cultural revolution. Because of this basis, America's white media foresaw and demonstrated to the world. Just as the Civil Rights Movement was cast in the valley of the shadow of death, better known to America as the Women's Liberation Movement, so was the Black Cultural Revolution cast in the wastebasket known to corporate America as Foul Thirteen.

7:58No matter how hard blacks in America try to place their past behind them, by trying to give white America an opportunity to move away from its salty past by giving peace as well as freedom a chance, America stayed true to the red, the white and the blue by denying blacks an opportunity to accept the ill-fated ideology of love is the answer, don't worry about the question. With the so-called love-in period of America, America began down the road to the psychedelic shack, trying to prove to the world that is truly where it's at.

8:53So when someone, anyone, wants to discredit the failure of white America With the escape-goat psychology of conventional wisdom being the usual suspect solutions that have all been tried and failed, I say to you, me today and you tomorrow, you sat by and watched in great horror the dismantling and destruction of a great and mighty people. You sit today in your great white ivory towers, perched on St. Charles Street, as white privilege hails King Rex and Comus, the land of the free and the home of the brave, where political deals are spun and New Orleans policy is dictated from.

9:50Tonight, we are going to examine yet another proposed solution to the murder and crime rates of New Orleans. Before we get started, you sit back and before you get comfortable, I want you to grab your rain gear. Get your hip boots, because it's going to get deep in here tonight. It's going to get deep up in here, up in here tonight. Just keep in the back of your head what fire water, that's alcohol, did to the indigenous people of this continent. So sit back and listen to General George Armstrong Custer, I'm sorry, I mean, Professor Walter Block of Loyola University.

10:38Professor Block, welcome to our story and tell us how legalizing drugs is going to decrease the murder and crime rate. Well, let me first thank you for that exhilarating introduction. That was magnificent. I think we have a gigantic problem here. There are young black men shooting each other down. In New Orleans, for a while, at the beginning of this year, it was pretty much one a day. Happily, we haven't kept up with that pace, but still, there are young black men, not just in New Orleans, but all over the country, shooting each other down. It's a horror, and nobody seems to want to do much about it.

11:28We rely on the old midnight basketball and education and ethics courses and stuff like that. But we've been doing that for years and years and years. Happily, we have a historical episode from which we can learn, namely the prohibition of alcohol in the 30s. And during the prohibition of alcohol, it wasn't black people so much killing each other over alcohol. Alcohol was Italian people, the mafia and others. They were shooting each other down in the street too. And, happily, we legalized alcohol. And nowadays, you know, nobody's shooting anybody. Schenley and Johnny Walker don't fire bomb each other.

12:16Alcohol is still a medical problem, and it's a horrible medical problem, but it's only a medical problem. are not also a social problem that leads to death. Now, before I go any further, in terms of the legalization of drugs, I think we absolutely have to keep distinct the difference between legalizing, which I favor, and using, which I don't favor. I do not favor using marijuana, cocaine, heroin, any of those things, those addictive drugs. I think they're poisons, some slow, some fast. I certainly oppose Is anyone using it? I don't use it. I hope no one here in our audience or in our studio uses it because I think these are a tragedy to use these things.

13:02Draino too is pretty bad, as is rat poison. Yet we legalize these things even though they're very harmful. So you have to distinguish between prohibition and legalization on the one hand and the use thereof on the other hand. Not only does the present law of prohibition of drugs lead to murders of disproportionately young black men, but also to great incarceration rates. My understanding of the statistics is that some 60% of all prisoners in the whole country, and the US incarcerates a much higher percentage of people than many other countries, Some 60% of it is due to drugs. And in the prison population, black people are wildly overrepresented on a statistical basis. Blacks are only some 12 or 13 or 14% of the entire population. I think there's something like half of the prison population. So this present system is a vicious, depraved horror for the black community. And I'm hoping to convince you people and the people in the audience that the black community Okay, we're going to see if we can't muster up and grab a few of them, you peoples, and bring them up and have them to respond to you, but we have with us this evening, Kimberly Parker, who is the chair of the Safe Streets, who is battling every day with trying to find a way to get to the bottom of this,

14:41Resolution to the Problems with Crime and Murder. Welcome to our story. Once again, you're no stranger to our story. Kimberly, thank you for taking the time to be with us. I ask you to come so that you could respond as well to some of these thoughts and theories that our good professor over here has. The floor is yours. Okay, well I agree with Professor Block about a couple of things. I believe that the criminalization of drugs is a huge problem and that the The incarceration rate of African-American people is also a huge problem, but I think that when you look at the numbers of people who are incarcerated for drug offenses, that primarily you'll see that they're users who are incarcerated, not people who are drug dealers or are the heads of any major drug organizations.

15:33What's happening is that someone with a vial of crack is being arrested and incarcerated for a long period of time, and that's someone who has a drug problem, and they're being put in jail because they have a drug problem. The second thing that I wanted to address is your assertion that we've tried all of the usual solutions. I would argue that we have claimed to have tried the usual solutions, but we haven't I haven't tried any of them in a directed and effective manner. I think you would agree that we have a dysfunctional police department, we have a dysfunctional district attorney's office. They don't work effectively one to the other, they don't work together very well, and they don't efficiently address the crime problem.

16:22So I think that a lot of what we're seeing is the results of their inability to incarcerate the people So, who are violent, who are being released on 701s, you know, after they've been held for 60 days and they haven't been charged yet. So, I think that what we really need to do is to figure out, are we employing the best ways in the systems that we already have in place? Are we using the best practices available to address the crime problem? If we discover that we are using the best practices and we're still getting the outcome that we're getting I think absolutely I'm with you it's time to start looking at something else something perhaps more radical but until we've actually tried the solutions that we claim to have tried and try them in a manner that makes sense and that is the result of research I think we're never going to really know if an effective police department that's not dysfunctional and that's not corrupt

17:24And before you respond, I want to let our listeners know that the phone lines are open and we're welcoming your input, your questions and your comments here. You can become a part of this as well. I want to also respond to the fact that, yes, The figures I have is over 60% of all the prisoners in the U.S. are black. But I think you were making it there in for drugs. But the problems that I'm seeing as well is that the claim that the usual solutions that have been employed and not working have not been employed in earnest.

18:21and that is a big problem. So suppose we get started there and then we'll work our way through this maze. Well, I don't think that Kimberly and I have gigantic differences between us because I agree with her, I agree with you, that the usual suspects or the usual principles or the usual policies should be continued. I'm not saying let's stop trying to reform police or let's stop trying to reform the DA or Let's Stop Midnight Basketball or Ethics Courses or any of that stuff. I'm saying keep going, try to do it better. And I'm sort of putting it to the side. So we agree that this is good stuff. I mean, no one is really saying let's stop that. But what I'm saying is that if we can do better on that, God bless, let's do better.

19:10But let's, given that the problem is so horrendous, let's try something more radical. In addition, not instead of, but in addition. and i'm saying that the time is now you're saying well if we try and we get through and we do it well and it still doesn't work then in a couple years we can try this i'm saying right now people are dying like flies and it's disproportionately blacks although i i don't care color white black green blue it's just human beings who are dying and being put in jail and being hurt and to me it's it's a gigantic crime that sort of cries out for an immediate solution I agree that it is dramatic and we need to have a solution immediately. I think I would just question whether or not there's any definitive evidence that the majority of the crime or the majority of the murders are drug related, number one.

20:07And number two, I wonder, once you legalize drugs, now you have a whole cadre of former drug dealers. They're uneducated, they're unskilled. So the reason that they went into the drug trade in the first place is because they're uneducated and unskilled. So what option will then be available to them that is a legal option? So, what's going to prevent them from turning to another illegal operation, which would continue the crime, it just would be another source of revenue for them, another illegal source of revenue would be there. I think that what we really need to address are the systemic reasons why people end up dealing drugs in the first place. I think that if you had an education and if there were job opportunities available that that paid you more than minimum wage, perhaps you wouldn't choose to sell drugs in your neighborhood if there were other options for you. But if you're uneducated and unskilled and there's another drug deal in your neighborhood saying you can make $1,000 a week, who wouldn't

21:15do that? I mean, so I guess my question is what will happen to these people who are involved in this criminal activity when you remove the criminal element of it so it's no longer Before I answer your question, let me ask you a quick question. Yes or no answer if you want, although you're not limited to yes or no. Do you favor the re-prohibition of alcohol, wine, beer, and stuff like that? No. Good. Okay. Quiet. I'm kidding, of course. Imagine we're back in 1935, and alcohol is prohibited. And I'm saying, well, we should legalize it, because it'll save us money. and save lives and people won't die from bathtub gin and would be the equivalent of impure drugs nowadays and people wouldn't be thrown in jail.

22:05And you're saying, but what will all these people who are now in the liquor gangs and have backward stills and bathtub gin people, what will they do? Therefore we shouldn't legalize it, but you wouldn't say that, because you've already said that you favor the present legalization of alcohol. So it's the same sort of a thing. In other words, there's always the problem of what will the criminals do once we cut their legs out from under them and we no longer have need for criminals in the alcohol business? Well, some of them may be reformed. I don't know. Like the Mafia? Look, what the Mafia does is they do things that is prohibited.

22:50They do sex, they do pornography, they do drugs, they do gambling when it's illegal, they do garbage because it's mainly a governmental thing, but they don't do pens or cough drops or wristwatches, because those things are legal and they can't compete. Wait a minute now, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Now we understand that that might have been true 70 years ago, But today, that is as far backwards as it possibly can be. We know that organized crime probably has more legitimate business than legitimate business has in America. And the problem being is the fact that you're saying that when they stopped the prohibition of alcohol, that it did not create social deaths.

23:41But what I'm saying is, what about all the automobile accidents we're having that are due because of alcohol? What about the people that are dying because of medical reasons due to alcohol? There are so many deaths that on the surface are not accounted or accredited to alcohol, but when you begin to dig into the history or you dig into the information you find out that alcohol is at the root of that death and we need to understand that because uh... secrums and anhyzer bush and all the rest of these mafiosus that are in legitimate business today are keeping the death rates They're keeping the problems of the crime rates, they're keeping the problems that these alcohols are creating quiet so they can continue to make above board legitimate money.

24:43Let me ask you the same question I asked Kimberly. Do you favor going back to the previous situation, the previous legal situation and prohibiting beer, wine and alcohol? Yes, I'm going to tell you I am, and I'm going to tell you why. If it's not readily available, you are not going to allow the entire population to give them carte blanche to it. It's like, it's just like, well, it's like the drugs today. The drugs are not legal, and you have a small percentage of the population, outside of the black population, that's consumers of illegal drugs. You don't really have a large black population that's consumer of illegal drugs.

25:34But it appears that way because that's all the media shows us, our black folks in the drug trade. Now, let me make another point. Harry Lee was here last week. Harry Lee admitted the majority of people that get arrested and locked up and put in jail for Drugs or Black. But there's no black person that they have been able to surface or find that controls, transports, manufactures drugs. The only ones that are going to jail are your street level involved folk and they happen to be black because white folk aren't taking the risk. Well, I think you're making my point. First of all, let me say that I'm, I find it highly problematic that you would favor going back to prohibition of alcohol.

26:30See, right now, alcohol is only one problem. It's a medical problem. And also if people drive while drinking and kill other people, that's part of the medical problem. problem. And I certainly favor treating drugs like alcohol. In other words, while I want to legalize drugs, I don't want you behind the wheel under the influence of drugs any more than I want you or me under the influence of alcohol behind the wheel. So drinking while driving or drinking while drugging should be illegal. But the point is that right now, alcohol is only a medical problem. It's not also a social problem. People are not being Drugs are being killed like flies over it, and what I'm saying is that drugs right now is a double problem. It's a medical problem, and it's a social problem where people are being killed.

27:16And I have no solution to the medical problem except, I don't know, alcoholics anonymous or narcotics anonymous or doctors or psychiatrists, the usual kind of thing. But I do have a solution to the other one, and that's important too. We shouldn't only look at the drugs or the alcohol as a medical problem, horrendous as those problems are. We should also look at this horrendous death problem. I agree that we have to look at it from very different perspectives. I think that it's important to consider the medical problem and the criminal problem. But I also think there's another problem that you're leaving out, which is the systemic reform problem, The breakdown of systems, because you have to talk about why people are taking drugs and why people are selling drugs.

28:06Because if you remove just drugs as a criminal activity that's available, if we're talking in the context of fighting crime, I don't see necessarily that there's going to be a decrease in crime. There might be a temporary decrease in crime, But these people who are engaged in this illegal activity will move on to another illegal activity because they have no skills, they have no education, they have no job opportunities. So if we're talking about legalizing drugs in order to fight crime, the reason why you have so many drug dealers in the first place is because there are no job opportunities and poor education. So if there are still no job opportunities and no education, what are these people going to do?

28:51do. They're certainly not going to go to get a straight job at Walmart or whatever and make $5 an hour. They're going to do some other illegal activity that generates the same income that the drug trade did, which is going to result in turf wars and all the same. And I think with the repeal of prohibition, you saw the same thing with the mafia. They moved to other criminal activities in order to make up the difference. And as you see Money with the Mafia now, even though they're in the decline, they're doing identity theft and credit card fraud and all kinds of other illegal activity that still has a criminal, a violent component. So I think that you remove drugs as one illegal opportunity to make money.

29:40People are going to move to something else until you give them options to do something differently. Well, I certainly favor giving them options, but we can't solve all problems in this one and Show. And I'm just trying to put the blinders on and focus on one problem, and that is the horrendous death rate, mainly to young black men, but to other people too. Let's talk about the economics of it a little bit, because I disagree profoundly with your idea that it's sort of like pressing water down in a bathtub. If you press it down here, it'll come up there, so you're no better off. But you have to, if you're trying to make the argument for legalization of drugs, you're So you're going to have to overcome the obstacle that she's brought up to you.

30:25I mean, before you can even consider legalizing drugs, you've got to satisfy that question. That's what I'm trying to do. All right, go ahead. And the way I'm trying to answer this is through the economics of it. Now, the economics of it, if I had a blackboard, I sort of feel naked without a blackboard because I'm a professor, I have to draw stuff. The point is we have supply and demand, and ordinarily, if it were legal, the supply would be shifted to the right or much greater, because marijuana particularly, and even poppy seeds are like weeds, you know, it's not even like asparagus, where you have to take care of it, and asparagus is expensive. These things are like weeds, you just sort of put the seed in, you have to back off, because they'll sort of attack you. The economics of it is that right now, it's hard Tenobe is it's illegal, but it costs about $2,000 a week to support a mature habit.

31:24The estimate is that if it were legalized it would cost $10 a week, which is what a candy bar habit costs. You can buy two candy bars a day. In other words, no one would commit a crime. It would be silly to commit crimes to get $10 a week. People do it every day. No, no, no. Some people do it, but people have to commit more crimes to get $2,000 a

32:13And maybe, although I doubt it, I think some of them wouldn't do it, but I try to deal with this problem with the mafia, you know, with regard to prohibition of alcohol. But the point is that at one fell swoop, if we legalize it, all of these addicts who now are in a horrible situation, they have to get $2,000 a week. And the main way that they're going to get that is by creating mayhem in society. Well, if it's only $10 a week, then they don't have to commit as much mayhem. The cops have gotten more guns than these people. They'd get shot, they'd brutalize their victims. All this social disarray would disappear, just as it did with alcohol. And another point that I want to make is, one of my favorite characters, Lenny Bruce, I don't know if anyone knows him anymore, but I'm a big fan of his, He died not of an overdose, but of impure heroin, and the cops knew that it was impure and they didn't stop him from doing it because they didn't much like him.

33:13Well, we have impure drugs now. You're getting a hot shot, in other words. Yes, but if Pfizer was doing it, or a squib, or somebody like that, and you went to a pharmacy to get your drugs, look, suppose... Wait a minute, now, that happens every day as well, but we've got a call. Oh, okay. You're on our story, question or comment, thank you for calling. Yohuru, African people who are watching the show would absolutely be totally misguided by the simple fact that we have a professor on the show who's talking about legalizing drugs. And the majority of our people do not understand the agenda behind individuals such Such as this professor when he talks about legalizing drugs. There are so many things that we have to take into account. The first thing I want to say is that professor, all black people are not dumb, deaf and blind. There are some that can think just like you that are able to decipher the language that you're speaking because this drug thing that

34:32you're speaking about, it would appear that this is a black problem. It is not a black problem. It goes beyond being a black problem. The sisters said the drug dealers are no education illiterate. Well, we have to go above their heads. Actually, the real drug dealers are not illiterate. They are on Wall Street, and they are in the business of the stock market trade. When you say people like Whack and Hutt, you mention about the prison population, more than half is black people. The more people you get that The dispossessed, disadvantaged behind these walls, the bigger and bigger their pockets get of the players on Wall Street.

35:25Okay, drugs is a chemical war on African people. It is a chemical war on African people. You have a global satellite system that you can use to spy on nations all over the world and send actual photo shots down to the T of buildings or plants that this country accuses of Iraq or any other country of producing weapons of mass destruction, yet you have this global system, satellite system, you cannot use the same satellite system to actually Locate the poppy fields and coca leaf plantations and wipe that whole industry out. But yeah, you want to make it seem like this is a problem, a local problem, when it is a federal problem.

36:23Now, you mentioned, something was mentioned about the mafia and all these things that they, you know, that they were warning them, so you legalize it and it stopped this. That That is a total illusion in a total other different part of the world. And that same part of the world you spoke of, it's called the Knights of Malta. And when you talk about the Knights of Malta, what you got, CIA, the Vatican, the Jesuits, and I'm quite sure you know who Loyola is, Ignatius of Loyola, okay, and Wall Street. All these are players in the drug industry, so there's no way you're going to get rid Well, I certainly agree with the caller that it's not just a local problem, it's not even a national problem, it's a world problem and it even feeds into terrorism because a lot of the terrorists are getting a lot of money from illegal drugs. But that's about all I Well, I agree with this gentleman on, and, you know, he talks about race and racism and black people. It's not a black problem. It's a human problem. It just so happens that blacks are disproportionately being hurt by it. So it seems to me that if the black community has the best interests of black people at heart, they would take what I'm saying very seriously, and not take it as racism, but take it as an attempt to help.

37:58Let's look at the racism about this. You had mentioned the economics question, the question of the monies, and if you attack that, that question is moot now, because it's not about $2,000 a week or a day. That was maybe 15, 20 years ago. The government worked with other concerns including the World Health Organization to create what is now called crack. To make sure that they could deliver a very cheap substance that would put a person on it for life.

38:48That is genocide. That is racism. But no one is talking about the racism and the genocide that drugs are utilizing. There are two sources of the genocide. One is the use of drugs, and here I agree with you. And I did say that I oppose this bitterly, and I think people shouldn't use it. And to the extent that they use it, it's horrible. And I agree with you that we should do everything we can, narcotics, anonymous, what have you, to get people off that. This is one problem. But I'm talking about a different problem, because I have no way to solve that one. But I do have a way to solve this other one, and this other one is black people are shooting each other down, the black, young black men particularly, but other races too, but disproportionately black, are shooting each other down in the streets. I don't say that the major cause of black death is this, but this is a big problem, and to just sort of ignore this seems horrendous and seems racist to me.

39:49Another thing that our people need to understand, there was a man named Thomas Smoltus in the late 18th, early 19th century, and he spoke about this overpopulation. When he spoke about overpopulation, he wasn't speaking about white folk, he was speaking about black people in particular, and people of color. So what he says is three ways you can control this so-called overpopulation, war, famine, and birth control. The drug, the new crack epidemic, which began with the CIA and freeway, Ricky Ross, in South Central California, the money they was using to overthrow the government in Nicaragua. Okay? Now, when you talk about that, the chemical warfare is just a plank, another plank of what's called Malthusian politics.

40:40And this professor has left all of that out when he talks about the drug situation and legalizing drugs. will accelerate the genocide of African people and that is the ultimate motive. It's called fear of a black planet and population control because white people are the slowest growing population on the face of this planet. Ask the German government. They recently wanted to pay parents in Germany to have more babies. They gave them incentives to have more babies. Okay? That is the ultimate agenda of what this professor is saying. Your Horace Assange. This gentleman reads Malthus differently than I do, but the point is he's interpreting me as saying that I want black people or all people, but particularly black people, to use this, but I try to distance myself from that. He is 180 degrees off of what I'm saying.

41:29He is interpreting me as saying that black people should use this stuff. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that if they use it, they shouldn't also be put in jail and they shouldn't be killed. Let's put it in a different perspective for you. Maybe you understand this. You're a professor at a leading university. You are championing the cause of legalizing drugs as a supposed method and means of lowering the murder rate in New Orleans. When you could be using your staff, you could be using your resources to attack the problem, The heart of the problem, going after the government, going after the businesses that are reaping the big profits from this because so-called, quote-unquote, legitimate businesses are the ones that are bringing this stuff in here.

42:25So if you're going to go after somebody to make a change, then you need to go after the people that are bringing this stuff in. And someone from your platform would definitely catch the attention of, as he was saying, viewers and others in a professional community to move on this. I think we're not communicating because my plan, and it's not original with me, but the plan of legalization would cut these people off at the knees. All these people related to drugs. If the price of drugs was $10 per week supply, none of these vast profits would be earned by anyone. You wouldn't earn any more profits in drugs than you earn in pens or in chocolate or something like that.

43:14Now, nobody wants to prohibit chocolate. I mean, who are those people that have that sugar disease? What's that called? Diabetes. Diabetes. Suppose we prohibited insulin. Now, right now, a diabetic, okay, it's a medical problem. It's a horrible medical problem. But it's just a medical problem. But suppose we prohibited insulin, thank you, and now the price of insulin, instead of $10 a shot or whatever it is, cheap, was $3,000. Well, then the insulin people, the diabetics would have to go out and commit crimes, and there'd be vast profits to be made. Now, nobody would advocate a crazy thing like that. Well, it's the same economic principle with drugs. Then, let's look at a resolution for that. Diabetes is created because of the foods you eat.

43:59It can be controlled. It can be eradicated. If you educate and you make available the proper foods for people to eat. So, why, I mean, why are we going, you know, why are we chasing after the horse after he's gotten out the barn? Why are we shutting the barn door? Do you think it would help diabetics if we prohibited insulin? I'm telling you, it would help diabetics if we would give them what is necessary to keep them from getting sick. I favor good food and I favor all sorts of medical things to help diabetics, but I don't favor prohibiting insulin. And you guys, or whoever disagrees with me, I'm not sure who, I think Kimberly is starting to agree with me, I'm not sure. But you guys are favoring the equivalent of prohibiting insulin, and you're telling me that that's somehow going to help diabetics.

44:46Kimberly? That is highly problematic. I think that, and I don't want to get off on the whole diabetic tangent, but I think that we just see the problem in two distinct ways. We see the problem of drugs differently. And I'm more interested in looking at the systemic causes of drug use. I'm looking at why would somebody use crack? What is the motivation to use crack? You don't seem to be that interested in that, but I am interested in that, why that person is doing that, because if there isn't a demand, then the drug dealer on the street makes no money, whether you legalize drugs or not. So I'm more interested in why people are using drugs, why people are selling drugs, and what we can do to provide options that will make that unnecessary.

45:39You know the story of the blind man and the elephant, you know, one thinks it's like a snake, another one thinks it's like a tree trunk? Right. I think you and I are blind men or blind people and there's an elephant out there. And the elephant is that we really agree. I agree with you that we should try to address the problem of why do people use these horrific drugs in the first place. But the reason I don't emphasize that is I have no specialization in it. I have no comparative advantage in it. I leave it to people such as yourself and to doctors and to psychiatrists. I'm an economist. I have to focus on the economics of it, and the economics of it is that when you drive the price from $10 to $2,000, you reap the whirlwind. So then you're telling me that you're coming out with this legalization to cut the murder rate down because it's just plain economics to you. That's the only interest you have in this.

46:28Well, it's not the only interest. That's what it sounds like. But hold up, we got a caller. Thank you for watching and calling our story. Question or comment? Caller, are you there? Okay, I'm sorry. You see, I agree with Kimberly. I support her. It's just that I have no expertise in that field. But I certainly support the idea of trying to find out why it is that people find themselves using whether it's heroin or drugs or liquor or insulin, and to try to have medical solutions for those problems. But in addition, we've also got to address this other thing, and there are disproportionately numbers of black people in jail, they spend decades in jail, for what, for putting crap into their bodies?

47:17They shouldn't... Not even for putting crap into their bodies, for possessing the crap that they might have wanted to put in their bodies. Right, you see, it's bad enough to put crap in your body or possess it, but why make it worse by putting him in jail and unleashing these wars. It seems to me, I can't understand why particularly the black community wouldn't get behind me on this, because it's disproportionately affecting the black people. Not so much in terms of profits. Because you're not attacking the problem. That's why they won't get behind it. You're not addressing the problem. I am. I really think that your analogy about the water in the tub is an apt one, because even though we disagree about whether or not that would be true, I really think that unless you address why people are behaving in a particular way, if you remove this one element of their behavior, the negative behavior may continue. If there are no other options, if there's nothing else for you to do...

48:23What's your question or comment? Oh, it's the side. How are you doing, Brother Johnson? I'm fine, thank you. This is Brother Lewis. All right, Brother Lewis. I think it's all conspiracy for the kill the black race of the United States of America. That's our conspiracy. Yeah. That's all it is. Appreciate it. Why hasn't a white man been bringing his stuff in here and trying to eliminate us? Appreciate it. We're going to get on that. We're going to talk about it a little bit. But thank you for calling, and have a good one. Your horse Asah. He's talking about the genocide. The fact that the drugs are used as a weapon to decrease the population of blacks in this country. He's right. And it's horrible. And I'm trying to stop it, and you people aren't seeing it. I mean, black people are dying like flies over this. I'm trying to stop this.

49:13I don't think that it's that we're not seeing it. I just think that we have some fundamental disagreements with your approach to addressing the problem. You come from a different community. You come from a different mentality altogether. You come from white privilege, and it doesn't bother you one way or the other, whether they straighten the problem up one way or the other, unless somebody comes and wants to carjack you. Then it's a problem. But besides that, it's not a problem. Look, I don't think it's a matter of white or black. There are black people that say what I say, Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams, eminent black economists who say exactly what I say on this. And if I'm wrong, it's not because I'm white, it's because my arguments are wrong. So I think that's sort of off the point. But I thought you and I were agreeing, I guess we're not, that we have to try to address the medical problem as best we can, whether it's diabetics and better food, whether it's

50:13Alcohol and, what do you call it, the 12-step programs, Alcoholics Anonymous? Yes, we have to do that. We agree. Why keep talking about what we agree? Let's talk about what we disagree on. What we disagree on, I think, maybe, although I think, you know, you're being inconsistent if you say we should not prohibit alcohol, but we should prohibit drugs, they're both the same as far as I'm concerned. No, no, no, no, that's not my position at all. I'm not, I'm not, Your position, as I understand it, and the reason that we're here, is that your position is that if you legalize drugs, the crime rate will go down. That is where you and I have the fundamental disagreement. Not that whether or not drugs should or shouldn't be legal, but whether or not legalizing drugs will result in lower crime, and especially in decreased murdering. When we legalized alcohol, did the crime rate go down?

51:10I'm sure it did. Well, then why not with drugs? It's the same thing. They're both prisons. No, I don't think that the motivations were the same. First of all, you had a situation where something was legal and then it was made illegal, which is different with illegal drugs. I think that pretty early on with cocaine, crack has always been illegal. No, no, no. The Harrison Narcotics Act in, I think, 1914 was, by the way, a racist thing I want to ask Professor, if you legalize drugs and you figure the crime going to stop, what about the poverty that people, you're still going to have crime coming from people that have to eat because the white supremacy has our economics and our community so messed up. What are you going to do about it?

52:10What do you do as far as an economist to bring the opportunities that people will need to sustain their lives? A lot of guys are dealing drugs sometimes because they don't have food on their table. You know, I grew up with a young guy who had to borrow salt and eggs and he dealt drugs for that reason because he tried to feed his family. So, okay, so say your little plan works. Then what do you do when you have people that are starving in the community? You can better use some of the economics that you've learned to go and change the conditions in the community that white America has placed upon the black community. And at the same time, re-educate the black community who they really are, because a lot we're running around, we don't know who we are. We know who you are, we know who Abe Lincoln is, but we don't know who we are.

52:58Well, I'm a... Thank you, Carla. We're just about out of time. But what I want to point out is everyone keeps talking about the same problem. Whether it's legal or not, it does not remove the problem that blacks have to face and deal with every day. Well, I want to report to this man. I'm a big fan of Malcolm X. I once met Malcolm X, and he was one of the most magnetic speakers I've ever met, a magnificent man. And what he did was, by the way, he was the one that started this Black is Beautiful stuff, the change a hair color or something like that because black is beautiful and i think that was wonderful what he did is he had a whole bunch of shabazz stores i don't think i have to tell you people about this but to answer this gentleman's question one of the ways to get out of poverty is entrepreneurship and that's what malcolm x was all about and i think that it's a great idea

53:52thank you, Kimberly, we're going to give you the next sixty seconds because we're out of time i just hope that The viewers take away from this discussion that we really, really need to focus on the systemic issues in our community if we want to improve our community, not just reduce the crime rate. If the calls are any indication, they understand that black folk are in trouble either way, whether it's legal or illegal, that we're not addressing the problems. Professor, I want to thank you for being here and we'll have to get back to this again. We want to thank everyone that watched us this evening and thank them for calling in and say that these are the kinds of discussions and dialogue that's necessary for us to know and understand what we have to do, what we must do, so that we can be the architects to the solutions that our community needs.

54:49It can't come from without. It has to come from within. And do we have any more? Got a minute. Do you want to say anything before we leave? Either one. Yes, I would like to say that it's a pleasure to be on this show with you every time. Well, thank you. I was on once before and I found it exhilarating and intriguing. And I'm honored that you would have me on your show. And I hope to come again to talk about this other problem of what to do about black poverty, which is a very different issue than the people who are dying because of drugs. We'll do that for you. And once again we want to thank you for watching, and we want you to realize and understand that we are here because you are there. Stay strong, stay black, stay committed, but by all means stay involved.

55:39Jehovah's Witnesses.